The Beat With Ari Melber : MSNBCW : July 8, 2024 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we're so grateful. "the beat" with katie phang in for ari starts right now. hi, katie. >> hi, nicole, always great to see you. have a great rest of the evening. >> have a good show. >> thanks. and welcome to "the beat," i'm katie phang, in for ari melber. we start with chilling revelations about the gop's official new agenda hatched behind closed doors and how it echoes extreme trump policies his allies have sought to downplay. today for the first time the rnc released details of its new 2024

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party platform. it will be voted on and officially adopted next week at the republican convention, but trump is already publicly praising it, and there's a reason why. as "the new york times" puts it today, the republican platform could read like a trump rally. it's a document that reads less like a list of policy proposals and more like the teleprompter at a trump rally. "the washington post" describing it as, quote, a full trump takeover of the party. it proposes ending the department of education. echoing several of the pillars of another conservative road map, the heritage foundation's project 2025. these policies are so alarming to most americans that donald trump has sought to distance himself from project 2025 in recent day, claiming at various times that he's never heard of the blueprint for his potential second term and that he has nothing to do with any of the people involved, which would be

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a lot more believable if dozens of them had not worked in his own administration or if he wasn't on camera praising the heritage foundation and several of the authors of project 2025 by name. >> we need the help of the heritage foundation. we're delighted to be joined on this occasion by acting director, who has done a fantastic job. >> president trump confirmed that he did intend to nominate steve moore for that spot. >> i will be nominating mr. moore for the fed. you know wh i'm talking about. so he's going to be great on the fed. >> john, it's possible that name rings a bell. he was so powerful inside the trump white house he has been called the deputy president. >> taken together the rnc platform and project 2025 embrace an enormous expansion of

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presidential power and complete submission to the whims and threats of donald trump personally. a stance that when coupled with last week's supreme court ruling on presidential immunity have some veteran justice department officials sounding the alarm about doj weaponization in a second trump term. and trump's ally, inviewing vp contender j.d. vance and former assistant attorney general jeff clark, are all but vowing revenge. >> i think what donald trump is simply saying is we ought to investigate the prior administration. i think donald trump's saying, look, let's do the basic work of investigating wrong doing is a totally reasonable thing for him to do. >> he can investigate whom he sees fit to investigate working with the justice department. and he can prosecute whom he sees fit to prosecute. >> joining me now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney, msnbc legal analyst, and a senior fellow with the brennan center. and sarah, senior advisor to the

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lincoln project and former communications director. tara, what was your reaction after you read that new gop 2024 platform. i mean, the only things missing in my opinion were promises for candy bar machines and soda in the cafeteria. it's an insult to voters if they think this platform is not just project 2025 and agenda 47 which is president trump's -- or former president trump's plans for when he gets to office again if he maybes it there. >> i've been paying attention to project 2025 for quite some time. when i was a republican, i remember the platform committee used to be things like lower taxes, strong national security, smaller government, not things like this. this is very, very scary stuff. i've been to six republican conventions, and the idea that they kept out abortion and marriage was very curious to me, because we know behind the scenes there was a fight about that. because the trump campaign knows

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this is where they are weakest when it comes to the public knowing what their plans are. project 2025 is the vehicle. and that's why i cofounded the seneca project, why we are focussing on making sure women understand what's at stake in this election, particularly right of center women who are looking at the republican party going i don't recognize this party, what do you mean you want to get rid of no-fault divorce? what do you mean you want to criminalize my healthcare? what do you mean you want my daughters to have less rights than i did? the fact that trump and his allies are trying to act like they don't know what it is is absurd. groups like mine are going to make sure they can't whitewash history. we see you. we know what you have said and done. we have an ad out today that talks about this. we call it pay attention. because people need to pay attention to what they are saying. you don't have to believe us. it's coming out of their mouths. they don't think women should

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have a right to vote. they don't think that women should have a right to birth control. they think women are stupid and past their prime if they're not in their prime fertile year, like charlie kirk said. this is real. this is the enemy. this is what we're fighting against. and this is not democratic at all. it's a march towards fascism. and the more that the american people know this, particularly women, because for us, for those of us right now, this is life or death for us. and we're marching towards something that looks like the handmaid's tale. all three of us will be on the wall if project 2025 is successful and donald trump wins in november. that's why we have to keep our eye on the prize. what's happening with the democrats has to stop. this is not about a personality. it is about an administration. it's about the stability of our government. and it's about whether you want to make an investment in making sure that the democracy remains and that we all have the freedoms to we know and love, what we just celebrated on july 4th. that's the choice. the as binary choice in

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november. >> you know, joyce, tara obviously makes a compelling argument as to why we have to protect democracy. i want to ask you through a legal lens when you read something like this gop platform a party lining up behind mass deportation, eradicating federal agency, weaponizing the doj, jailing political opponents, to you fear for what is left of the rule of law? >> so look, i think we would be naive not to have that fear, and katie, you played a segment that featured jeff clark. jeff clark, for those who've forgotten, was a presidential appointed, senate confirmed department of justice employee during the trump administration. he ran the environment and natural resources division. and it is clark who became prominent after he was introduced by a congressman to donald trump and he agreed to use the justice department to push forward the fake election scheme, to say that there were

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fraud problems in the election. what we heard clark saying in those clips you played was that it was up to donald trump to decide who he wanted to prosecute. and as a presidentially appointed, senate confirmed justice department official, he absolutely knows that that's not true. in fact, that's the opposite of the way the rule of law works in this country. we don't let presidents weaponize the justice department. we don't let them use the criminal justice system to punish their enemies and protect their friends. career prosecutors make decisions based on the law and the facts. they go through grand juries. they go to trial juries. that's how this system has worked. and this is the first time in our nation's history we have heard a plan to alter it. it's in project 2025. it's in this republican platform that we've seen. we are hearing it in these evoices who are talking about going after prosecutors who didn't target donald trump. instead they used the normal

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criminal process. again, using grand juries and investigative procedure, presenting their cases in front of jurors, convicting in manhattan, as we saw recently in that state prosecution, republicans here in this platform are suggesting the end of all of that and the end of much of the rule of law as we've known it. >> you know, tara, maga figures are embracing project 2025. a lot of it being enshrined in that gop platform, which we know donald trump approves. but in the same breath, as you noted, trump has allies. they're trying to distance him from project 2025. take a quick listen to marco rubio from the sunday shows. >> think tanks do think tank stuff. i like heritage foundation. i agree with some of the things they stand for. there's a bunch of scholars and people that turn around and work on different projects. our candidate for president is

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donald trump. >> is that what project 2025 is? idealogical lunacy? >> no, it's a think tank. >> this platform is in all caps, and a lot of us on social media have been mocking it. it looks like it was written by a third grader, although that's an insult i think, with a crayon the way it's presented. and yet if you look at what was released, they actually say we will make america great again. sit a total embracing of the mantra of donald trump, but for me, it wasn't just j.d. vance and marco rubio, it's been other, including donald trump himself, tara, it's the gaslighting for me. it's an insult to americans and american voters if they think we won't understand that they are all one and is same. >> oh, 100%. i mean, it's up to us when we use these platforms to make sure the american people are informed. that is the number one thing. we cannot have an uninformed public. because if you do, they are easily manipulated into believing the bs that's coming out of trump's mouth. trump is a lying liar who lies.

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we've demonstrated that -- we see him demonstrate that every single day. so if all of a sudden we're supposed to be like, oh, he denounced project 2025, oh, we believe him, no. he's full of it, and we know it. 80% of the authors of project 2025, this manifesto that's almost 1,000 pages, worked in the trump administration or are close allies of donald trump. don't believe me, look it up, as taraji henson said. these people are proud of it. you have the head of the heritage foundation talking about a second revolution that will be bloodless if the left cooperates, basically. what are we talking about here in we have a supreme court that has given carte blanche to the president to be a king. you have cash patel out here talking about project 2025 and trump and using those levers to exact retribution on people. this needs to be spread far and wide so people understand. and like i said, specifically for women, we are the first

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people that they will come for when it comes to taking our rights away. and it's important for women to understand the stakes at that. you galvanize women, you save democracy. that's what we believe, because women have had enough. and the more they find out about their plan, the more women are going, no way in hell, not no, but hell no, not on our watch. that's our goal. we've got to defeat maga in november at all costs. and project 2025 should be the fuel that people need to see. they're laying out the agenda right in front of us. they're telling us what they're going to do. believe them. >> you know, joyce, you wrote, quote, project 2025 doesn't contain overt references to trump. in that regard, it reminds me of the supreme court's opinion in the immunity appeal. the court pretended it was writing rules for theoretical future presidents. i mean, joyce, project 2025 consolidates power into the presidency, into the executive branch. it doesn't allow for wiggle room

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for other branches of government to be able to exercise discretion. i mean, isn't that what the supreme court has now done with that immunity ruling? it's basically said here is a red carpet invitation to whoever assumes the oval office to be able to do that in conjunction with project 2025. >> you know, any one of these developments would be frightening on their own, katie, the problem is we're seeing them happen together. so we have this vision of the unitary presidency that's embodied in project 2025, and then we have the supreme court saying go ahead, donald trump, or whoever the next president is, do whatever you need to do. and if that is, you know, to use the overused hypothetical for oral argument, to order sale team six to take out one of your enemy, that's okay as long as it's part of your public and official functions. so much of this is unreal. i was listening to tara lay out all of the horrible things in store for women under project

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2025 and it sounds crazy. it sounds ridiculous. and the problem is, it's what's in the document. it is all there. >> that's right. >> it's very important, i think, that we all study what we are being told will happen if trump regains power. and no matter what he say, project 2025 is something he's involved in. here's one of the little key points that helps us understand that. project 2025 includes this notion of reforming the federal bureaucracy so that employees will be loyal to donald trump not to the constitution. a number of his people who were involved in employment and in staffing the white house and other agencies during his tenure as presidency, those are the folks who are involved in writing project 2025. that's an important key feature of this work. >> joyce vance and tara setmayer. tara, i ran out of time, i wanted to play your seneca project ad. i urge everybody watching right

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now, go and watch the seneca project's ad that just came out today. it explicitly lays out in the own mouth -- coming from the mouths of these people at project 2025 what they're planning to do to women and women's rights. the last thing i'll say is and that's why what president biden said in that interview on friday night about the character of who's in the oval office is so critical. the character of the person in the oval is going to make a difference for democracy. thanks to both of you brilliant women for joining me tonight. >> thank you. coming up, president biden's new message to democrat who is say he should end his candidacy. why the doj thinks there's a path forward after the ruling on trump's immunity. molly jong-fast on how the world is pushing back on maga-style extremism. it's a big show tonight. we're back in just 90 seconds. w tonight. we're back in just 90 seconds. with just one card. chase freedom unlimited. so, if you're off the racking... ...or crab cracking, you're cashbacking. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs,

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quote, the voters of the democratic party have voted. they have chosen me to be the nominee of the party. do we now just say this process didn't matter? that the voters don't have a say? as of today, nine house democrats are calling on biden to drop out, but so far no democrats in the senate are urging him to step aside. joining me now is fernanda, democratic strategist and pollster and libby casey, senior news anchor with "the washington post." my thanks to both of you for being was tonight. libby, i'm going to start with you. what does the biden campaign need to do to make this a referendum on donald trump? >> well, that's certainly what president biden and his campaign want to do, katie, but the spotlight is solidly on joe biden. we hear him taking this tone right now, both on morning joe today and in this letter to democrats, blaming elite, blaming someone else and saying the people voted for me. listen to the people. and it almost reminds you of some of what happens in the republican party of where

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there's this populist moment. but it's key to point out that some of his very loyal democrats, like sherrod brown of ohio, a senator in a tough re-election battle, is someone who's saying ohioans, in his words, have legitimate concerns about the viability of biden's re-election campaign. brown is not calling for him to step aside, but you hear democrats trying to turn it back and say i'm listening to people back home and they have questions. the next 24 hours are pivotal where i am in washington, because that's where all these meetings are happening now. the democrats are coming back after the holiday, and they're having conversations behind closed doors about just how they move forward. >> yeah but libby, i want to push back for a second, though, why is biden wrong, though? if he's hearing from the voters, and the voters are the people who wanted him there, and if the process went the way he said it did and he is the nominee, basically, why is it wrong for biden to push back and say we

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should listen to the voters and not the chattering class or the donor class? >> the question is who is actually calling for him to step aside or who's raising the questions. and when you hear some members of congress saying, i'm hearing concerns and questions from people back home, that's where they're having to take their cues from the voters. so what biden has to do is reassure voters back home as well as leaders in washington that he has what it takes of do the job and run for re-election, which are two separate but, of course, connected things. biden has a huge week this week. nato leaders are here in washington for an important summit. he'll be in front of cameras tomorrow. he'll be in front of cameras thursday. he's back on the cam plane trail right after that. democrats will be watching closely, both people at home and the leadership near washington, to see how he does. the congressional back caucus is meeting with president biden

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over to phone tonight. "the washington post" has reporting about this because the cbc is really vital to joe biden's race. i'm sure he'll be listening to them about the concerns they're hearing from constituents. >> you know, fernand, donald trump has been playing golf and hasn't been seen in public for nine to ten day, why aren't there more calls to make sure that donald trump withdraws as a candidate? last i checked he's the only one convicted of 34 felony, indicted four times, and twice impeached. >> katie, you're right, there's an unfair double standard going here, no question. those in the media should call on president trump to resign from the race, but the fact of the matter is the reason there's dissension on one side and not on the other is because the republican party under donald trump is a cult. they have fallen into line. they will do anything, say anything. it doesn't matter what trump says. on the other side, this is a healthy and normal debate.

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i don't think democrats should gaslight democrats, katie, about the fact that circ*mstances have changed. prior to the debate, every democrat, or most democrats in the country, were strongly behind president biden, and they are willing to overlook the legitimate concerns that president biden himself existed about his age. unfortunately, in the president's own words, the debate was a disaster. it has caused a lot of people to be concerned. and the reason that they're concerned, katie, it's not about joe biden, it's not about kamala harris or any other democrat, they're concerned because on the other side of the ballot is a project to move the united states into an authoritarian, fas shisist state. it's on president bide on the allay those concerns, those fears. unfortunately, there is no longer any margin for error because the off-ramp for democrats to make the best choice to beat president trump, which is the only thing that

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matters in this election, runs out of shelf life in about three weeks. >> yeah, but fernand, each candidate has -- well, first of all, i don't -- i don't think that one debate should be an indictment of president biden's first administration. i don't. number two, each candidate -- and this is the very interesting thing we have here -- you have a biden and a trump, each has shown what they can do with a one-term administration so far. why is this not a no-brainer, fernand? biden's the only way to go when it comes to policy and substance. why is it that the off-ramp, as you speak of, is this kind of thin, narrow, challenging thing now with no room for error for somebody like joe biden when donald trump is a walking word salad who has questionable cognitive issues? i don't understand why this is even an apples to apples comparison though. >> because no one is questioning president biden's first term. it is the most historic and successful term of the last half century in the united states.

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no one will ever take that away from president biden. and they should not. he has governed extraordinarily well, and the country is so much better off for his leadership. he saved democracy in 2020. the question, katie, is not about the last four years, it's about the next four years. and president biden, whether we like it or not, is the oldest president to serve. he would be the oldest president if reelected. these are legitimate questions because of president biden's debate performance. americans are not silly. they're concerned that something like thursday night could happen over the next four months, the next four years. but you're right, it is unfair to compare a good, successful patriot like joe biden who has governed in a historic manner to someone who is a convicted felon, disqualified himself, twice impeached, who will lead and is comfortable now about talking about putting military

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tribunals to opponents. the problem is there are voters out there who, unfortunately, are looking at that trump message and saying, yeah, i want some of that fascism. >> donald trump is three years younger than joe biden. it's a biflair choice. a democracy or a dictatorship. i don't think there's room for error when it comes to the future of american democracy. >> katie? >> yeah? >> can i mention one thing? i think the conversation i'm hearing from democrats is one that they don't want to be having. i mean, i'm hearing heartbreak. i'm hearing frustration. i'm hearing them say, i love this guy, i'm so loyal to this guy, i believe in this first term, and i can't believe we're here having this conversation. so it's a really tough moment. and part of the democratic process may be having these conversations and we'll see where this goes. that's why i think this next 24 hours is really important, because biden will be having phone calls with leaders here in washington. they'll be talking to each other. they'll be taking the temperature of people back home that they've been talking to on the july 4th break. and now they have to make some

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decisions about how they will respond to the leader of their party and the president. >> yeah, you know, libby, and i got to go, and i appreciate you and fernand taking your time for this conversation, i just think these conversations are being had in vacuums. i think it isn't right to discount four years with president biden and to think that there's not a capability for that to have a repeat. these people don't -- these -- both biden and trump don't serve in vacuums either. they surround themselves with competent people. and i can't say that about the trump administration. and what we know from project 2025 is what trump promises to do. so if we're going to look forward, as fernand says, we need to look forward. and it is certainly not going to be a path to democracy if we stick with somebody like donald trump. so i got the last word out of the two of you guys, fernand, libby, thanks for the healthy conversation. i appreciate it. later in the show a biographer who interviewed trump six times making damming claims

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about trump's, quote, severe memory issues. see, the cognitive stuff. he'll be hear live and he's bringing audio tapes. new blowback to conservative biegs and corruption at the supreme court. all of that, plus the fight between autocracy and democracy on the world stage. molly jong-fast is here. the world stage molly jong-fast is here. m... at verizon, everyone can get the best deals, like that iphone 15 on them. (man) switching all the time... it wasn't easy. (lady) 35. (store customer) you're gonna be here forever. (man) i know. (employee) here is your wireless contract. (man) do i need a lawyer for this? those were hard days. representative. switch! now that i got a huge storage and battery upgrade... i'm officially done switching. (vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone, any condition. guaranteed. (man) i really wished you told me sooner. (roommate) i did. everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients.

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with you on the go, with exclusive access to speeds up to a gig in millions of locations nationwide. and right now, xfinity internet customers can buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. get the fastest connection to paris with xfinity. world leaders are bracing for a possible second trump presidency as nato allies are reportedly working to, quote, trump proof the alliance months before the november election. it all comes as those same leaders are descending on d.c. to meet with biden for a nato conference this week. however, the global rise in right wing extremism still has its limits. voters in france blocking far right parties from rising to power. a stunning rebuke to the movement's leader who has famously aligned herself with

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trump and putin. >> [ speaking in a global language ] >> joining me now is molly jong-fast, special correspondent for vanity fair and an msnbc political analyst. molly, it's good to see you. look, what can americans learn from what we just saw go down in france? >> yeah, i mean, what's really interesting in france is they have these elections, two cycles. so the first cycle, the fascist le pen party looked like they were going to win. in the second cycle what they did, the two other parties, the left and middle, and they made sure to run candidates that could win. and they collaborated. because you know, what i think is the really important message here is throughout the world there are more normal people who want to live in democracy than there are far rightists who want to live in autocracy. the reason that the sort of

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autocrat's getting there is usually because people aren't paying attention. even if you look in history, the reason why in germany and, you know, hitler was able to come to power was because financially germany was decimated and in a terrible spot. and that led to -- i mean, i'm oversimplifying, but the point here is that i think that when people are paying attention, especially right now, around the world people don't want to be ruled by autocrats. >> president biden speaking on morning joe today about the outcome of those french elections, take a quick listen. >> france reject eked extremism. democrats will reject it here as well. trump is a guy who is an extreme candidate. i can't think of a candidate in my lifetime that's been more extreme. he makes george wallace look like a patriot. >> yeah. he's right about that. i mean, should president biden lean more into this message? i mean, in france, those voters

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said not on our watch. >> yeah, i think -- look, americans are very worried about this, and you see this in europe too, europeans are really worried about what a second trump term would mean, because trump has -- he rejects nato, he rejects the normal things we have done very well within this century. you know, things that -- treaties, agreements that prevent war, that prevent, you know, nuclear proliferation, so i do think that he's a very scary leader to much of europe. and also i think it's important to remember like he's also very scary, you know, for the economy, right? because, you know, markets like stability. and donald trump is very, you know, he may have this 2025 plan, but we all know when we lived through his presidency he would swing back and forth. he would get an idea, he would lose interest. he would try to buy greenland. he was very, very unstable so. that's also quite scary. and you know the american

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economy is enormous, and so it will affect the rest of the world. >> i'm telling you, molly jong-fast, we have the anniversary of nato, it's going to be convening this week, and i'm sure all of those nations' leaders are relieved that it's president biden and it's not donald trump that's going to be at this nato conference. molly jong-fast, thanks for being here. as always, it's good to see you. still ahead, a trump insider who has receipts from his multiple interviews with the former president. but first, backlash after the supreme court grants trump broad immunity. that's next. grants trump broad immunity that n'sext. ♪ ♪ have you always had trouble losing weight and keeping it off? same. discover the power of wegovy®. ♪ ♪ with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds. ♪ ♪ and i'm keeping the weight off. wegovy® helps you lose weight and keep it off. i'm reducing my risk. wegovy® is the only fda-approved weight-management medicine

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the public's trust in the supreme court is at a record low. it's even lower than after the court overturned roe v. wade, and the court is under fire for that stunning decision giving trump some immunity for alleged crimes committed while in office. trump allies downplaying that decision while top democrats sounding alarm bells. >> i think what the supreme court did is it clarified what the law is. >> what the supreme court did in that decision was give the next occupant of that office, whether it's joe biden or anyone else, nearly dictator power. >> leah lit man, the host of the strict scrutiny podcast, leeia, i love spending time with you because we can always have very frank conversations about what's going on, and the public's lack

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of faith in scotus, it's well earned. it's completely well earned by six of those nine justices. this term was particularly destructive, and then they ended on their version of a high note with that immunity decision. >> yes, so i was glad you put up the statistic comparing the approval ratings after the immunity decision from the court's approval ratings after the abortion decision. because i think an unfortunate reality that the court might have internalized from their plummeting approval ratings after they overruled roe versus wade is that even if the public is increasingly losing faith in the court, the democratic party isn't doing anything about that. right? there was no legislation actually enacted to enforce an enforceable ethics code, nor was there legislation trying to limit the court's power. and i worry that the plummeting approval ratings are not going to materialize into actual legislation that would counter a lot of the harms that the supreme court is doing to this country and in the absence of that, the court is just going to

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keep on doing what it's doing because no one is stopping them. >> you know, abc news is reporting a trend of the supreme court issuing controversial decisions in the 11th hour. it's a strategy to minimize public backlash by having the court announce opinions after the public has settled on a narrative for the term. that was pretty on point there, leah. and yet, for me, they like to pretend they're not swayed by public sentiment. sometimes when the justices publicly speak out they're like, no, no, we don't care what the public's going to do in their reactions, but i feel like this is intentional. they were going to wait until their last day in term to give us that decision, for example. >> the lady doth protest a little too much. i think the supreme court, in particular the chief justice, is one of the more skilled politicians in washington, d.c., as far as cultivating a favorable media narrative.

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if you consider a lot of the press coverage up until the very final weeks of the term, they were depicting the court as dividing along atypical line, and perhaps there was a new moderatings institutionalist center of the court. it fell through once you added in the final weeks of the decisions. that's not to mention the substance of those decisions, and it seemed like the media just did not take the time to internalize that and the court was firing off so many of these decisions in a short window that there wasn't time to process them and communicate them in an effective way. >> yeah, that's my concern. people were just dealing with chevron being overturned, next thing you know, absolute immunity for the occupant of the oval office. i want to ask about this new sort of idealogical split going on. there's been a lot of -- i'm going to put celebration in quotes, because i don't celebrate it, amy coney

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barrett's unique and -- the idea she's standing up against her other fellow conservative jurists, and yet i feel like you want to talk about the doth protesting too much, i feel there's too much of a her ralding of some type of change in the climate on the court in light of recent barrett decisions. i'll give her credit where credit is due, some of her decisions actually make sense, like her concurrence, although she shouldn't have concurred with the immunity, but i agree the fake electors is private conduct. but please, go ahead. >> yeah, so i weary that people are taking a little bit too much from the few occasions that she has departed from her fellow republican appointees. we can point to the examples of other republican appointees doing the same. justice cavanaugh joined the democratic appointees on a water act case. gorsuch has joined on important immigration rulings or criminal law rulings. and yet we are not positioning these justices as somehow newly moderate or institutionalist or going to restrain the future of

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the supreme court. and i don't think we should be doing that with justice barrett. it's true she peeled off in some instances, but so too do the rest of her colleagues. add to that the decisions that she joined the overruling of roe, chevron, opening up a field day on agencies by basically allowing any party at any time to challenge anything an sath has done. and you add up those examples and it's just not nearly enough to suggest she has some type of meaningful independent streak. >> leah litman, as i said, love talking with you because you just always tell it straight. thanks for being here, friend, i appreciate it. >> thank you. up next, my special guest, a biographer who has interviewed trump numerous times, joins me live. trump numerous times, joins me live shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. only shingrix is proven over 90% effective. shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose.

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hear me now, paycom! return the world of hr and payroll to its rightful place of chaos or face a tsunami of unnecessary the likes of which you have never seen! -- when i say he, i'm talking about donald trump. now, there's new evidence of his mental decline from our nest

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guest, the most on-record bur views since trump left the white house. he also admitted on tape he lost -- it was a slip revealing how he doesn't even believe his own big lie. >> after i lost the election -- i won the election, but the one said we lost. he called me up three, four times. >> joining mess ramin, author of the book "apresentition in wonderland." ramin, it's a fantastic book. i urge everyone to get it and read it. that clip, it shows that donald trump knows he lost the 2020 election, yet he quickly

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corrects himself to lie and say he won. what do you think of that quick slip? >> thank you so much for having me on. i think that's a moment in which we saw the real donald trump. that's an interview from trump tower. we were watching "the apprentice" clips. he was happy, and i think we saw the real trump there. >> another part of your book, his memory issues, here's a quick clip of him ending your but view, because he says he has to deal with afghanistan? take a quick listen. >> the reason i'm doing this, devoting a lot of time to it, i have to get back up, because, you know, i'm doing the whole thing with afghanistan. >> trump seems to imply he has foreign policy powers even after leaving the white house. your thoughts about that interaction with him?

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>> it was a very strange moment. one of the things i took away from donald trump, he conducts himself like an actor. he's playing the part of a politician, playing the part of president of the united states. he's not interested in governing or forming policy, but as the journalist who spent the most time with him since he left the white house, the media has stopped covering donald trump. we aren't paying attention. he didn't have to test himself at the debate. he didn't show his true self in the debate. i think it's important for the conversation to go back to donald trump, who he is, what he wants, and my book is his origin story. >> ramin, you also elaborate on his several and repeated memory lapses saying, quote, a question about a contestant cascades into a defense of his leadership as potus, and then swings back to the 200s.

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again, on some days i have a feel he has no idea whom he is even talking to. at our second meeting, he tells me he couldn't remember sitting down with me, even though it was a few months earlier. to your point that you just said, shouldn't voters be concerned about his clear cognitive deficits? i think so. not only could he not remember me, he couldn't remember the names of contestants on "the apprentice" he couldn't remember certain things and moments when he was in the white house. he has a very foggy memory. we never saw that at the debate, because he wasn't pushed. he let joe biden do all the talking, and i think the focus needs to be back on donald trump. >> something you just said that struck a chord with me is this idea that he puts on, maybe that mask or facade, when he presents he won, and then he was acting the role of president of the

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united states, which, you know, when i say it's a binary choice between democracy or dictatorship, it's not hyperbole. it's an existential moment. when you have somebody who pretends to do the job or somebody who can do the job, how important is it that people read your book to understand the genesis of how donald trump got where he is. >> my book was written with the mind defend set of appealing to everyday voters, who watched reality tv. it's important to understand this mirage that was created on "the apprentice." that was all through the effects of edits, the show's producer, what was done with cameras, lenses, tricks we clearly need to know about as american voters. >> smoke and mirrors. ramin, thank you so much for being here. your book is a doozy. it's fantastic.

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>> thank you so much for having me. we'll be right back with one more thing. > we'll be right bace more thing (woman) i'm so excited. i'm finally here in the city. what. (man) ahhhhh! (man) have you seen my ph- ahhh! (woman) oh no! (man) woah, woah, woah! (woman) no, no, no, no, no!

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(woman) great. (man) ughhh. (man) dude. (vo) you break it. we take it. trade in any phone, in any condition. guaranteed. and get a new iphone 15 with tons of storage, on us. (woman) oh yeah. only on verizon. if you're living with hiv, imagine being good to go without daily hiv pills. good to go off the grid. good to go nonstop. with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider. just 6 times a year. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or if you're taking certain medicines which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver or kidney problems,

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president biden making it abundantly clear this morning he's not taking advice from party leaders or big donors. he's listening to voters, staying in the race. >> i don't care what those big names think. they were wrong in 2020. they were wrong in 2022 about the red wave. go with me, come out with me. you make a judgment. you make a judgment. >> and a quick programming note, you can catch me saturdays at 12:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. that does it for me tonight "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. ♪♪

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